Difference between revisions of "Talk:2007-08 ASM Star Trek (1965-2005)"

Revision as of 18:33, 16 January 2008

Comparison ST v SW

I think there could be an interesting comparison between the "general mindset" in Star Trek and Star Wars. While I know I always denied that Star Wars is Fantasy it... certainly has VERY strong elements of it, in contrast to ST. As you said: The Starfleet is militarily drilled while Luke et al rely on single heroes channelling an ominous FORCE (taught by grammatically challenged elders). I do not know yet how much time I will have left besides by Magisterarbeit (outline following soon...) but with interest twds. Fantasy I'd like to do something here maybe, possibly more twds. the beginning than the end. Main ideas I had: -[Main Point] Border of Fantasy and Science Fiction (Star Wars: Fantasy in a Science Fiction Disguise?) => What distinguishes ST from SF in this respect - What exactly makes SF "pure" SF? ... so far only basic ideas. --Nico Zorn 20:27, 30 August 2007 (CEST)

Why should Star Wars be fantasy??? Lightsabers? Well, just stumbled over this page. --Karsten Sill 20:05, 8 October 2007 (CEST)

Speaking partly for Olaf, swords are one instance. Then there is the plot: hero with 'supernatural powers' (the force==magic?), an evil black mage (Palpatine, Vader), unbeatable odds...and the success of the hero through... well.. I'd say a combination of faith and magic. Which is not a problem, if one regards it a kind of faith-magic.... I do not know if there are gods in the SW universe, though. Another perspective is this movie which has been acknowledged by G.L. to be of important influence on SW. I would still not classify it as Fantasy... but in the end one probably has to ask: how important is milieu as a criterium for the definition of "Fantasy"? --Nico Zorn 23:19, 8 October 2007 (CEST)

Sounds interesting (Starwars no fantasy??? with princesses and monsters and swords, I repeat swords, in a technically superior future???)

Underline the "technical superior future" and you have the reason why I am still saying "at the very least no pure fantasy". And yes, yes I know that the definition is shaky. Unfortunately, they all are. Besides: even Klingons still fight with swordlike weapons. Well, something between sword and polearm and parade weapon - their Bathleths (sp?). --Nico Zorn 11:55, 31 August 2007 (CEST)

Fragments of Mind

"Economy": We never hear of an economic system and I remember Kirk telling the biologist in ST IV that all money has been abandoned. Yet, in Generations he tells Picard that he has SOLD his house... glitch? hidden Federation-internal trading system? (obviously there is some kind of trade between different races with different products &c

Nostalgia: ST VI - even the title is a Shakespeare quote ("The Undiscovered Country", Hamlet, III.ii?)- "Klingon original" - and General Chang really likes quoting him. Also...

Contemporal Events ... the same Chang's name: pointing to an alleged "Chino-Asian [Communist] menace" [1991] within the allegory of the fall of Communism as en.wikipedia states. Enrony? The Federation seems pretty Communistic to me by now.--Nico Zorn 00:36, 9 September 2007 (CEST)

Commercial Success: Just found the quotas for ST on Kabel 1 - apparently still a success, at least for a smaller channel: http://www.quotenmeter.de/?newsid=22328 --Nico Zorn 12:47, 16 September 2007 (CEST)

Asteroid named for ST character - ongoing cultural presence of the ST universe

http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20071007 , cf. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21106431/

Another testimony to the development of a new, transparent 'steel' are many responses in varying news comments dubbing it "Transparent Aluminium" (see Star Trek IV)

Nov 10, 2007: The Star Trek Night - The Movies: 18:00

I suggest to change the program of that meeting from

"we'll try to see as many of the movies as possible, eat and drink wine"

to

"we'll see the movies, eat and try to drink as much of the wine as possible"

--Christian Fiedler

 :) --Olaf Simons 08:31, 25 October 2007 (CEST)

Just a rather stupid question. Is this event still taking place? Is there anything else to bring except the usual drinks? --Karsten Sill 20:02, 6 November 2007 (CET)

Lassen wir ese um 18.00 anfangen - wer erst später dazukommt, kommt halt dazu während Filme bereits laufen. --Olaf Simons 21:06, 6 November 2007 (CET)

Oct 25, 2007: Seminar Plan - please comment and modify!

Hi everyone: I just concluded a first draft of what might become our schedule. Commentary is welcome. If you have topics you feel interested in, throw them in. I'll try to fit them into the schedule or to modify the schedule accordingly. :PS - and please log in with your real names. See the main page to see how we did it. --Olaf Simons 10:07, 25 October 2007 (CEST)

Hello,I suggest that we definitely watch Star Trek movie number nine, Insurrection, that night. This movie was entirely different from all the others and deals with things such as eternal life, morality and of what people would do to have an eternal life etc. And Picard FALLS IN LOVE .So that's definitely interesting. Another MUST SEE is number eight, First Contact. The Enterprise "meets" a Borg Cube and some of their Crew are being assimilated. Data is given a piece of real skin by the Borg's leader, which is very important to him as he's always wanted to be as human as possible.

You know that in the future, the people drink Syntahol, don't you ;-). But sometimes Picard won't say no to a bottle of good French wine :-). Neither will I. What can I bring?

Oct 31, 2007: The most important list

Which are the important films we have to watch, your fovourites? If you can tell why, that is even better - 'cause we should make sure that we do not miss something important. Look at the Wikipedia links I provided to refer to titles

TOS

• Who mourns for Adonais? (TOS) Kirk et al. meet a being demanding identifying himself as Apollon and apparently really being the Greek God. Kirk declines to worship him by stating that 'the one' god they have is enough; Apollon finally leaves as there is 'no place for gods any more'.

The Final Frontier (Star Trek V) Ok, no show... but with religion and Eden/Sha Ka Ree at the core. --Nico Zorn 23:17, 31 October 2007 (CET)

Imho Trek V is the weakest installment in the series. Maybe because of Shatner's direction or the weak script (or maybe because I have not yet seen ST Nemesis, from what I've heard it might be even worse). Special effects are not convincing, plot holes all over the story. I don't like it... . I think "Star Trek The Motion Picture" is a far better movie when it comes to discussing religion (V'ger, a machine created by man, in search of his maker).--David schuenemann 10:22, 7 November 2007 (CET)

Fascinating, to quote a certain 'Spitzohr'. i found the first movie incredibly boring and long-stretched. But I would agree that ST V is definitely not the best one of the movies. Nemesis... well... as you said, prepare to be underwhelmed. --Nico Zorn 19:51, 7 November 2007 (CET)

Next Generation

Justice (TNG) How to deal with a benevolent, protective god of pacifist aliens with overly cruel punishments? (Can the allowance of a people's "God" legitimately override the Prime Directive?)

(moved some stuff to front page --Olaf Simons 18:36, 14 November 2007 (CET))

Deep Space Nine

Suggestions for topics:

• Prophets; Pah-Wraiths and Founders - Godlike Beings play a prominent role in DS9.
• Bajor-Cardassia-conflict a central story arc in DS9. Conflict is comparable to Apartheid/colonialism/imperialism in the real world.
• Captain Sisko's development over the course of the series (note the change between seasons 3 and 4.). Possibly due to low ratings, Sisko's outward appearance was changed. At the same time the Dominion was introduced into DS9 story arc which paved the way for a lot of action (Dominion war). The Defiant (first ever federation WARship, heavily armed) made its first appearances in season 3 and became a means to travel to the gamma quadrant. The new story arc deviated from previous Star Trek series in several ways. It focused on action and war rather than discovery and research. Possibly due to low ratings and/or Roddenberrys death?

Suggestions for shows:

• Pilot Prophets story arc. The characters are introduced. Sisko is presented as emissary of the prophets.
• Way of the warrior Dominion war story arc. Worf enters the DS9 storyline. The episode is typical for the post-season-3 episodes of DS9. More action, less prophets.

--David schuenemann 15:57, 6 November 2007 (CET)

DS9: no idea which show would be best featuring Sisko as "The Emissary"... lots of tidbits. Nico Zorn

(moved some stuff to front page session Nov. 14. 2007 --Olaf Simons 18:38, 14 November 2007 (CET))

Voyager

Suggestions for topics:

• The Maquis a paramilitary/terrorist organization. Show suggestion: Maybe worst case scenario (also has malfunctioning holodeck, which is a recurring theme since holodecks were first introduced in TNG).

--David schuenemann 16:01, 6 November 2007 (CET)

Enterprise

• In a mirror, darkly (see [below])

Questions for the session on Star Trek: Enterprise

1. How would you describe the relationship between T'Pol and Cap. Archer?

2. How would you describe the teamwork among the crew?

3. How are conflicts solved?

4. What are your impressions concerning the trailer (e.g. theme song)?

5. Does the pilot reflect our time? If yes, in which way (please give examples)!

6. Do you have any ideas why the ratings were so low that the series was stopped earlier than originally planned?

by Petra & Alex

...some other questions to look at:

What is the role of Captain Archer? What is his mission?

How are women portrayed (aliens and humans,for example, T'Pol, Sarin, Hoshi)?

Mirror, Mirror etc.

After the original episode Mirror, Mirror (TOS) the SAME parallel universe (called the Mirror Universe was revisted several times in DS9. The first of those visits was equally involuntary and comments briefly on the effects of Mirror-Spock's decision: Crossover (DS9). Further exchange between the universes now follows in intended but enforced manner in Through the Looking Glass (DS9) and Shattered Mirror (DS9), both in direction towards the mirror universe, as well as in Resurrection (DS9) which brings back a "really" dead character in form pf its mirror entity. The exchange between the universes finally culminates in an awkward attempt of (who else?) Grand Nagus Zek to make profit from trade between them. The Emperor's New Cloak (DS9). Apparently there is also a double show of the Enterprise which I have never seen and which is apparently inconsistent with other mirror episodes and giving a version of the Terran Empire's founding: In a Mirror, Darkly. The dramturgic use of the universe is drastically different. It now provides a showplace to help 'good' mankind in their struggle against 'evil' powerful empires as well as playing out "dead" characters and putting "real" characters in alternative situations. Plus, people are now AWARE of the mirror universe(s) and actively interconnect. Sidenote: The Prime Directive does not really apply here. (They DO have warp.) --Nico Zorn 20:28, 3 November 2007 (CET)

The Mirror-universe has its intrinsic problems anyway: As we learn, these people - in the negative universe - annihilate each other quite easily, life is not that precious to them - the divergence of both universes should be immense after only a week. (Or it turns out, that both universes are equally stable - relying on each other... I do not know - in any case I found the project intriguing as it allowed us to think of a different organisation of everything. The negative universe tells us much about the positive. I'm thinking of a session on rebellions on board, power structures... Do take a look at the last TOS show Turnaboubout Intrudor, 1969, where they nearly have executions on board of the good Enterprise: A Kirk (changeling) commands the execution of Spock, Bones and Scotty - and the crew is hardly ready to believe that the real Kirk does now live in the body of a woman - all very weird and revealing. --Olaf Simons 12:32, 4 November 2007 (CET)

"In a mirror, darkly" is one of the few episodes of "Enterprise" that I have seen. And I think it's highly entertaining (voted best episode of "Star Trek - Enterprise" by Star Trek Magazine readers). The title is a quotation from the bible: "For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known." (1 Corinthians 13:12 from the American Standard Version. Source: Memory Alpha.) This kind of blends in with the argument that the negative universe reveals a lot about the positive. Watch the opening credits for this episode and compare them to the regular credits. It depicts history between our time and trek-time as a continuation of the war-ridden 20th cenntury. The opening scene of this episode is a scene from "First Contact" (Star Trek VIII) mixed with reshot material. Saphram Cochrane (sp?) shoots (!) the Vulcan and things develop in a completely different way than in our beloved trek-universe (might also be an episode to be looked at in our "star trek politics" sessions). Great stuff! A must see for every fan of Star Trek.--David schuenemann 10:37, 7 November 2007 (CET)

You can find A LOT of ST episodes on Youtube. "In a mirror, darkly" can be found there as well as tons of others. Just search for "enterprise episodes" for example. You should also take a look at the user ENTepisodes.

In defence of the "In a mirror, darkly" episode I want to say that I really enjoyed finally seeing Star Trek characters acting in a "badass" sort of way. It was entertaining and funny to see them - at once - not acting according to some flawless moral. It is indeed a mirror of standard Star Trek as characters behave absolutetly and often even ridiculously unethical as opposed to their often ridiculously ethical counterparts.--David schuenemann 18:31, 16 January 2008 (CET)

Prime Directive

• I just stumbled upon this episode that is related to the prime directive: Enterprise 1x09 Civilization The Enterprise encounters a pre-industrial society. "The ensuing investigation involves various matters of interest, including pre-Starfleet ethical dilemmas and matters surrounding the tenets of first contact." (Memory-Alpha)

--David schuenemann 02:16, 10 November 2007 (CET)

well, after I watched this episode I realized that the prime directive was not as central to the story as I expected from the outline. It boils down to this statement by T'Pol (Vulcan): T'Pol makes reference to a protocol which states that it is wise "...to wait until a society develops warp drive before initiating first contact...". She goes on to say that it would be wise for Starfleet to adopt these "Vulcan protocols." Starfleet would later adopt them as part of the Prime Directive, serving as a benchmark for measuring development of a civilization and admission to the Federation. (Memory Alpha)

1x13 Dear Doctor has more pre-prime-directive ethical discussions between Phlox and Captain Archer.

I'm not participating the seminar, but a fan of Star Trek: How about this one: Voyager 6x132 Blink of an Eye. It's not about the Prime Directive in that way that the rule is broken, but the Voyager still influences a culture (well, accidentally). Verena Engelhardt 22:24, 11 November 2007 (CET)

In the process of thinking about my provocative theory of the "prime directive" being nothing more than a writer`s blunder, which is somewhat unsatisfying, I came up with another explanation. If we consider that at least one writer thought that the concept of "Non-Interference" would come naturally to a supposedly extremely far developed society as the Federation that he made it their "prime directive", one should wonder why he thought so.

Humanity has a history of devastating and frustrating cultural contact. Take, for example, the European colonists in America who exploited and in the end practically wiped out several indigenous cultures (Indians, Maya, ...) that were (from a European perspective) underdeveloped. So this genocide might be the true reason, why there is a prime directive. Whenever "higher developed" cultures encountered "lower developed" cultures in human history, the former had a tendency to first exploit and in the end annihilate (or assimilate) the latter.

So by introducing the "prime directive" this could be prevented and so we perceive the federation as an extremely far developed society in which cultural conflict (between societies in different phases of their development) is no longer a problem. oder so... --David schuenemann 18:26, 16 January 2008 (CET)