Difference between revisions of "Talk:2011 AM Literary Representations of Torture"

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What status does torture have in the magistrate's society?
 
What status does torture have in the magistrate's society?
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* Until the arrival of Colonel Joll, there seemed to be no torture in the magsitrate's society (p. 9). It also seems to be vaguely institutionalized, because the magistrate tells the reader abot the officials of the Third Bureau of the Civil Guard. These members are described as "[...]guardians of the State, specialists in the obscurer motions of sedition, devotees of truth, doctors of interrogation." (p. 9). Having a whole organization dealing with torture, it seems to be legitimate. The magistrate, however, depicts their work as dirty (p. 13). Contrary to 1984, torture is not as highly standardized (with signing papers etc), but rather dirty. It happens behind locked doors and no one is allowed to witness it except torturer and victim. The magistrate also wonders whether torture being dirty is only his, or rather, the province's perception (p. 13). This indicates that within his society there may be a different thinking about torture and torturers. [[User:Sören Niewint|Sören Niewint]]
  
 
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Revision as of 15:03, 11 May 2011

General Discussion

Questions/Critique/Proposals:

Additional representations of torture in: Literature / Drama / Film / Music

Please leave your name and a short explanatory note for each work you found:

  • Mark Ravenhill. Shoot/ Get Treasure/ Repeat Methuen, 2008.

Drama performed in 2010 by the Berliner Ensemble with the altered titel "Freedom and Democracy I hate you" (Sip)

Expert Groups

Authority/Society/Context (Niewint/Senkbeil)

  George Orwell: 1984

What status does torture have in Oceania's society? Is it allowed, condemned, etc.? Briefly comment on your opinion and give a page number as proof.

  • In general, I would argue, that torture is an aspect of everyday live, like the permanent monitoring and noise of the telescreen for example, and thus accepted. Besides this "everyday torture", there are also the methods of the Thought Police, as described on page 108: "[...]before death (nobody spoke of such things, yet everybody knew of them) there was the routine of confession that had to be gone through: the grovelling of the floor and screaming for mercy, the crack of broken bones, the smashed teeth and bloody clots of hair." The application of torture is at least known among the society. Julia also states on page 107 that "Everybody always confesses. You can't help it. They torture you." Torturing is thus used by the authorities to sustain the status quo. As Winston read in The Book torture "[...] not only became common again, but [was] tolerated and even defended by people who considers themselves enlightened and progressive." (p. 213). But it is not only tolerated, it is even institutionalized in the Ministry of Love (p. 225). However, there is a different treatment of different social classes. It seems that only Party members have fear torture, while the class of Proles is not affected.

Sören Niewint

  • The government of Oceania uses torture with the intention to convert people, who try to liberate themselves of the leading party and "Big Brother". So torture is a legitimate way to fight the opposition. I think, the people of Oceania have an idea of the governmental torture, at least they know of the hard punishment for people, who act against "Big Brother". In Chapter 3, Part 2 (Pages 272 / 273), while Winston is in the third stage of "reintegration", he is allowed to ask O´Brien some questions. One of these is the question "What is in Room 101?". O´Brien states, that Winston actually knows the answer as everybody does, which implicates that the people of Oceania know about the torture chambers of the government or at least heard rumors about them. (KS)
 Coetzee: Waiting for the Barbarians

What status does torture have in the magistrate's society?

  • Until the arrival of Colonel Joll, there seemed to be no torture in the magsitrate's society (p. 9). It also seems to be vaguely institutionalized, because the magistrate tells the reader abot the officials of the Third Bureau of the Civil Guard. These members are described as "[...]guardians of the State, specialists in the obscurer motions of sedition, devotees of truth, doctors of interrogation." (p. 9). Having a whole organization dealing with torture, it seems to be legitimate. The magistrate, however, depicts their work as dirty (p. 13). Contrary to 1984, torture is not as highly standardized (with signing papers etc), but rather dirty. It happens behind locked doors and no one is allowed to witness it except torturer and victim. The magistrate also wonders whether torture being dirty is only his, or rather, the province's perception (p. 13). This indicates that within his society there may be a different thinking about torture and torturers. Sören Niewint

Torture Methods (Dragomir, Zielonki, Bagus)

  George Orwell: 1984

Name two torture methods (give page numbers) and explain why you consider them torture.

  • Despite the fact that the whole setting of Oceniana with it`s totalitarian system could be considered as torture there are two literally tortue methods. These methods are used to "re-educate" Winston to stop his rebellion against the Party and Big Brother. 1. The physical torture, which is more like the classic torture (p.251ff). Winston gets physically beaten up by guards before the intellectuals start more subtle ways like electroshocks (p.257). In additon he gets injected a pain-increasing substance. 2. The room 101 is another torture method. Since Winston resists all attempts of "Education" he is brought to room 101 (p.295 ff). There people get confronted with their worst fear, which is of course always individual and the most effective. Winston is tortured with his fear of rats until he finally gives up and confesses. (CZ)
  • Two further methods of literal torture, despite things like constant surveillance and deprivation of personal life, sexuality, opinion, freedom of speech...etc are encountered by Winston in the Miniluv. 1. The distortion of time and space (p.237, p.241, p.243) which is used to confuse the prisoneres and confer a feeling of total and utter isolation. 2. Another technique that is used is starvation(p.237, p.247, p284) which is not only used to merely weaken the body but alo the psyche. (RD)
  • The most obvious torture in „1984“ is the general situation. The actings are controlled as well as the the thoughts [p.4]. Furthermore future and past totally depends on the parties: anything you supposed to be true can in the next second be deleted from history, which has to be terrible, confusing and frightening at the same time [p.40ff]. The same goes with with words and expressions regarding newsspeak [p.53]. There is also the enduring fear of being vaporised because even a single move with your hands can be seen as beeing conspicuous. I would also describe the „Two minutes hate“ as some kind of torture. People are confronted with noises and pictures that make them crazy, aggressive and confused [p.13ff]. (SB)

Can you discover a pattern/development in how the torture methods are arrangeed in the book?

  • I definitely think there's a development of torture methods. Firstly, there is the „basic“ torture. People are watched and controlled all the time but not threatened individually: they have to suffer physically (exercises [p.34-39], no sufficient supply [p.33] or health care [p.3]) and psychologically (no privacy [p.4], not even in thinking). When Winston is arrested the methods get harder and specify more on his individual weak points, physically as well as phsychologically again [p.251 ff]. (SB)
  Coetzee: Waiting for the Barbarians

'Name two torture methods (give page numbers) and briefly compare them to torture in 1984.


Truth/Confession (Sieling, Barkemeyer)

  George Orwell: 1984

1. Can or how does the reader know if Winston speaks the truth under torture? (Give a page number to support your argument)

  • On page 259, Winston explains that remeberes a photograph, which actually could have saved three men from death. This photograph is in his memory and so the reader can be sure that Winston speaks the truth. O’ Brien tells him that this is not true and that it’s just Winston’s truth. On page 262, Winston speaks the truth under torture by telling O’ Brien that he’s showing four fingers. O’ Brien doesn’t accept this answer and keeps tortuering Winston. (VS)
  • There are several indicators for the reader to know whether or not Winston speaks the truth. One is, of course, the previous narration the reader followed and therefore knows what Winston was thinking unaware of the surveillance of the party. As Winston is the focalizer and the narration is unreliable as we merely follow the narration from Winston's point of view we can never be sure in how far the events are being altered by the party but for the same reasons the reader can assume that Winston does not lie to himself. Only in the end when Winston is “turned” by the party he is using “doublethink” and the reader cannot be sure which are his thoughts and which are those imparted on him by the party, however, it is still Winston's thoughts the reader gets to know and these are true for Winston and therefore for the reader. “He became simply a mouth that uttered, a hand that signed, whatever was demanded of him” (page 254) In this quote and in the following paragraph it becomes clear that Winston is lying under confession and is merely confessing to make the torture stop. Further examples of confessed crimes include subjects the reader was again confronted with in the course of the story. He confesses e.g. to have murdered his wife which was discussed earlier in the story as being untrue.(WB)

2. When does Winston confess under torture and what does he confess/give away? Please describe how his confessions are located within the structure of the book. (Give a page numbers to support your argument)

  • After the first torture procedures, Winston cofesses that he is a murderer and a spy (p. 254). He confesses all these things because he is scared of the torture. He gives away his freewill. (VS)
  • Winston is subject to a process of confessing. He starts confessing after a long stretch of physical torture. As mentioned above we find this on pages 254 f. Winston confesses whatever the torturers want him to confess. “He confessed to the assassination of eminent party members, the distribution of seditious pamphlets, embezzlement of public funds...” In a later stage, when Winston is interrogated by O'Brien, he confesses to what he really did and, more importantly, thinks. Electric shocks and a certain intimacy as well as O'Brien's knowledge make Winston confess first as a protest to withstand O'Brien's torture and later to save himself.(WB)
  Coetzee: Waiting for the Barbarians

What value does a confession under torture have in Waiting for the Barbarians?