Talk:2008 BM1 Assignment 2: Antony and Cleopatra - Revision history

Anna Auguscik: /* Q 5 */

2008-07-29T10:01:08Z

Q 5

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	There are two women of great importance in Shakespeare's play "Antony and Cleopatra" - Cleopatra and Octavia. At first sight they seem to be completely different: Octavia being "of holy, cold and still conversation" (2.6.124f.) and Cleopatra, the passionate, self-centred femme fatale subjecting powerful men to her by seducing them (e.g. 1.1.16ff.; 2.1.22ff.; 2.2.237). Whereas Octavia is obedient (2.3.8), Cleopatra behaves demanding towards Antony (e.g. 1.1.14). While Cleopatra is angry and filled with self-pity, when Antony has to leave her in order to do his job (1.3.25ff.; 1.5.20ff.), Octavia shows appreciation for Antony's duties as a politician (2.3.12ff.). While Cleopatra uses Antony's feelings to direct him according to her aims (4.13.8), Octavia is regarded as a means to an end (2.2.159ff.). But there is a big similarity between these characters: Both women are led by their emotions (e.g. 2.5.61; 3.4.12ff.) and they both cannot exert directly, but need powerful men to do it for them (3.3.5f.; 3.6.88ff.), because the Roman society is a patriarchal system. Both women have different ways of dealing with this system: Octavia has adjusted to the male-dominated society and trusts in men (especially Caesar) to take care of her (3.2.25ff.), however Cleopatra infiltrates the Roman patriarchate by influencing Antony according to her wishes (1.3.77ff.). After Antony's death Cleopatra rather commits suicide than being humiliated by Caesar (4.15.24ff.) and being subjected to his patriarchal political system (4.15.77). One can come to the conclusion that neither Octavia nor Cleopatra can finally prevent to be subjected to the patriarchal system of the Roman society: the only way to escape male predominance is death.		There are two women of great importance in Shakespeare's play "Antony and Cleopatra" - Cleopatra and Octavia. At first sight they seem to be completely different: Octavia being "of holy, cold and still conversation" (2.6.124f.) and Cleopatra, the passionate, self-centred femme fatale subjecting powerful men to her by seducing them (e.g. 1.1.16ff.; 2.1.22ff.; 2.2.237). Whereas Octavia is obedient (2.3.8), Cleopatra behaves demanding towards Antony (e.g. 1.1.14). While Cleopatra is angry and filled with self-pity, when Antony has to leave her in order to do his job (1.3.25ff.; 1.5.20ff.), Octavia shows appreciation for Antony's duties as a politician (2.3.12ff.). While Cleopatra uses Antony's feelings to direct him according to her aims (4.13.8), Octavia is regarded as a means to an end (2.2.159ff.). But there is a big similarity between these characters: Both women are led by their emotions (e.g. 2.5.61; 3.4.12ff.) and they both cannot exert directly, but need powerful men to do it for them (3.3.5f.; 3.6.88ff.), because the Roman society is a patriarchal system. Both women have different ways of dealing with this system: Octavia has adjusted to the male-dominated society and trusts in men (especially Caesar) to take care of her (3.2.25ff.), however Cleopatra infiltrates the Roman patriarchate by influencing Antony according to her wishes (1.3.77ff.). After Antony's death Cleopatra rather commits suicide than being humiliated by Caesar (4.15.24ff.) and being subjected to his patriarchal political system (4.15.77). One can come to the conclusion that neither Octavia nor Cleopatra can finally prevent to be subjected to the patriarchal system of the Roman society: the only way to escape male predominance is death.

			'''or'''

			Politics play a very important role throughout the whole plot of Shakespeare’s Anthony and Cleopatra. In this scene, it becomes very obvious that Agrippas suggestion, Caesar’s agreement on that and Anthony’s decision to take Octavia as his wife have one reason: appeasement politics. They are absolutely sure that the marriage will put an end to the discrepancies between Antony and Caesar (cf. ll. 138ff., 152ff., 160ff.). Of course Antony does not love Octavia and everybody is aware of this fact. Caesar even knows about Antony’s relationship to Cleopatra (cf. ll. 127ff.). So apparently, because of his role as one of the triumvirs, Antony is expected to act politically without letting his emotions influence him. But he fails to do so. Before leaving Cleopatra (cf. 1.4), he tells her that he will fulfil her wishes in Rome, be it “peace or war” (cf. 1.3 ll. 67ff.). When he decides to go back to Cleopatra (cf. 3.5) and to fight against Caesar with her, they unite their powers (Cleopatra’s over Egypt and Antony’s over one third of the Roman Empire). But Cleopatra fools Antony as she flees with her fleet during the battle at sea and Antony does the same to his soldiers by following her (cf. 3.10). Nevertheless, he forgives her easily (cf. 3.11 ll. 70-71). But Cleopatra repeats her deed in the last battle at sea (cf. 4.12). These examples make clear that Antony is deeply influenced by his love to Cleopatra. Mostly, His politics are not driven by his role as a triumvir, but by his feelings for the Egyptian queen.

Anna Auguscik: /* Q 5 */

2008-07-03T13:21:33Z

Q 5

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	These minor characters are the voices of reason to the major characters who are too wrapped up in their lives and emotions to be able to think rationally. They have the ability to distance themselves from current events, which enables them to make rational and insightful suggestions. In this, they play the rational counter parts to the emotional characters of their masters and mistresses. <br>		These minor characters are the voices of reason to the major characters who are too wrapped up in their lives and emotions to be able to think rationally. They have the ability to distance themselves from current events, which enables them to make rational and insightful suggestions. In this, they play the rational counter parts to the emotional characters of their masters and mistresses. <br>
	(19 / 20)		(19 / 20)

			'''or'''

			There are two women of great importance in Shakespeare's play "Antony and Cleopatra" - Cleopatra and Octavia. At first sight they seem to be completely different: Octavia being "of holy, cold and still conversation" (2.6.124f.) and Cleopatra, the passionate, self-centred femme fatale subjecting powerful men to her by seducing them (e.g. 1.1.16ff.; 2.1.22ff.; 2.2.237). Whereas Octavia is obedient (2.3.8), Cleopatra behaves demanding towards Antony (e.g. 1.1.14). While Cleopatra is angry and filled with self-pity, when Antony has to leave her in order to do his job (1.3.25ff.; 1.5.20ff.), Octavia shows appreciation for Antony's duties as a politician (2.3.12ff.). While Cleopatra uses Antony's feelings to direct him according to her aims (4.13.8), Octavia is regarded as a means to an end (2.2.159ff.). But there is a big similarity between these characters: Both women are led by their emotions (e.g. 2.5.61; 3.4.12ff.) and they both cannot exert directly, but need powerful men to do it for them (3.3.5f.; 3.6.88ff.), because the Roman society is a patriarchal system. Both women have different ways of dealing with this system: Octavia has adjusted to the male-dominated society and trusts in men (especially Caesar) to take care of her (3.2.25ff.), however Cleopatra infiltrates the Roman patriarchate by influencing Antony according to her wishes (1.3.77ff.). After Antony's death Cleopatra rather commits suicide than being humiliated by Caesar (4.15.24ff.) and being subjected to his patriarchal political system (4.15.77). One can come to the conclusion that neither Octavia nor Cleopatra can finally prevent to be subjected to the patriarchal system of the Roman society: the only way to escape male predominance is death.

Anna Auguscik at 08:19, 11 June 2008

2008-06-11T08:19:21Z

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	* Antony’s tragic role as a person who reacts rather than acts is mirrored in the scene. He reduces Enobarbus to a silent listener before the quoted passage (as he will later on defy his military advice), and renounces his affair with Cleopatra rather than using his freedom to solidify his position now that his wife is dead.		* Antony’s tragic role as a person who reacts rather than acts is mirrored in the scene. He reduces Enobarbus to a silent listener before the quoted passage (as he will later on defy his military advice), and renounces his affair with Cleopatra rather than using his freedom to solidify his position now that his wife is dead.
	* The play is eminently political – it focuses on interactions between powerful rulers (the triumvirate, Pompey, Cleopatra) and introduces a layer of subordinate characters (Agrippa, Enobarbus, Menas, Charmian…) who become spokesmen and commentators, capable of personal views differing from their masters’.		* The play is eminently political – it focuses on interactions between powerful rulers (the triumvirate, Pompey, Cleopatra) and introduces a layer of subordinate characters (Agrippa, Enobarbus, Menas, Charmian…) who become spokesmen and commentators, capable of personal views differing from their masters’.

			==Samples from Student Assignments==
			===Q 1===
			The passage from William Shakespeare's Antony and Cleopatra (lines 123-161, Scene 2, Act II) to be discussed in this assignment begins with a dialog between Agrippa, Caesar and Antony (l.123-131). The conversation is interrupted by a monological dialog (l. 132-146) by Agrippa. This passage is followed by a balanced dialog between Antony and Caesar (l. 146-161), where Caesar has nine and Antony ten lines. It is ended by two longer statements on behalf of the two characters (l. 152-161).<br>

			The dominant idea in this dialog is the arrangement of a marriage between Antony and Caesar's sister Octavia, (l. 134-135). All that is spoken in this section revolves around this idea.<br>

			Even though Agrippa presents the dominant idea "take Anthony, Octauia to his wife" (l. 134-135) and has the most lines (18) in this dialog, the dominant speaker is Caesar. This shows in Agrippa's submissive way in addressing Caesar "Giue me leaue Caesar" (l. 123) and Caesar's interruption and objection to Agrippa's speech "Say not so Agrippa" (l. 127). Another indicator for Caesar's dominance is given in the dialog between Antony and Caesar after they have heard Agrippa's proposal. Here, Antony merely asks questions and leaves the decision up to Caesar (l. 146-152).<br>
			(19 /20)
			===Q 2===
			The passage can be divided into four sections. In the first section (l.123-131) Agrippa states that Caesar has a sister and that Antony is not married anymore. Caesar interrupts Agrippa, hinting that Antony is already involved with Cleopatra. Antony does not deny this. He however points out that he is not married and therefore wishes to hear Agrippa's proposal. This section serves the purpose of an introduction for the audience to a new idea in the storyline.<br>

			The second section consists of Agrippa's monological dialog (l. 132-146). In it, he proposes a marriage between Antony and Octavia and proceeds to argue his case with different arguments. These include Octavia's amenities, the improvement of the relationship between Caesar and Antony and the power of Octavia's love to bind the two men together. He concludes by admitting that he has spent some time thinking about this proposal.<br>

			The third section consists of the short exchange between Antony and Caesar after Agrippa's proposal (l. 146-152). Antony is inquiring what Caesar thinks about a marriage. Caesar returns the question to Antony, who seems unable or unwilling to take a stand. The section ends with Caesar exclaiming his support for this idea.<br>

			The last section (l. 152-161) consists of Antony's agreement with the marriage and the sealing of the matter with a handshake between the two characters. Each of the men expresses their hopes in this bond in a longer statement.<br>
			(18 / 20)
			===Q 3===
			Agrippa is a submissive, respectful and dutiful character, whose main interest is the well being of his master and his politics. This can be seen in his figural implicit verbal behavior "Giuve me leaue Caesar" (l. 123). He abides by the rules of conduct, which instruct him, as a follower, to ask for permission to speak. An indication for his loyalty can be found in the figural implicit verbal statement "Pardon what I haue spoke (...) By duty ruminated" (l.144-146). The indirectness with which Agrippa is characterized emphasizes his submissive and dutiful character as a follower.<br>

			Caesar is a dominant character, confident in his power and used to giving orders. This is expressed in his figural implicit verbal behavior towards Agrippa (l. 123) and Antony (l. 147). He knows about his power and makes use of it when it suits him, which shows in his figural explicit self-commentary "The power of Caesar, And his power, vnto Octavia" (l. 151-152). Caesar's overt self-characterizations support the fact that he is a very powerful character on stage.<br>

			We also find out that Caesar has a sister who he loves. This he expresses in the figural explicit self-commentary "whom no Brother Did euer loue so deerely" (l. 158-159). In this relationship too, Caesar is dominant, which shows in his figural explicit self-commentary "And his power vnto Octavia" (l. 152). The discrepancy between his expressed love for his sister and the fact that he uses her for his purposes, is a figural implicit verbal characterization of a certain amount of selfishness and hunger for power on Caesar's side.<br>

			Antony is first characterized by Agrippa in a figural explicit commentary by others in dialog in praesentia, with the words "Great Mark Anthony" (l. 126). As the passage proceeds, however, we see that even though Antony is one of the three rulers of the Roman Empire, Caesar and Antony are not equals anymore. With Caesar's refusal "Not till he heares how Antony is touched" (l. 147) he characterizes Antony, through figural implicit verbal behavior, as someone who has to abide by his rules. These opposite characterizations of Antony, through Agrippa and Caesar, show that Antony is not a straightforward heroic character. He is rather a man with strengths and weaknesses.<br>
			(18 / 20)
			===Q 5===
			In this scene Agrippa introduces the idea of marriage, in order to mend the strained relationship between Caesar and Antony. This is remarkable, since Agrippa, as a minor character has insight into the situation of the major characters, which goes beyond his official status as a follower.<br>

			Two other characters who carry out a similar role in the play are Enobarbus and Charmian. Right before Agrippa's suggestion e.g., Enobarbus advises Antony to make up with Caesar for the time being, in order to be able to deal with Pompey (l. 109-112). Antony, however, too wrapped up in his anger, tells him to be quiet. Charmian repeatedly gives Cleopatra advice, when she sees that her mistress is maneuvering herself into trouble. She e.g. advises her not to use tricks to force Antony to love her (act I, scene 3, l. 7-9). This warning appears in a different light, when one considers, how, by telling Antony that she is dead, Cleopatra causes a tragedy (act IV, scene13, l. 7-10). Charmian, though just a minor character, has a deeper insight into matters than her mistress.<br>

			These minor characters are the voices of reason to the major characters who are too wrapped up in their lives and emotions to be able to think rationally. They have the ability to distance themselves from current events, which enables them to make rational and insightful suggestions. In this, they play the rational counter parts to the emotional characters of their masters and mistresses. <br>
			(19 / 20)

Anna Auguscik at 07:42, 6 June 2008

2008-06-06T07:42:14Z

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 In fact I have only one question:
 How can I answer 5 questions properly on only 3 pages (especially with that given style sheet)?
@@ Line 17: / Line 18: @@
 --[[User:Jessika Thiele]] 18:02, 23 May 2008 (CEST)
-== EXcerpt questions ==
+===Excerpt questions===
 I do have the same problems!
@@ Line 28: / Line 29: @@
 ::Just viewed the next problem: the passage thats being typed into the assignments "article" (btw: she 's called CLEOPATRA!;-) ) includes Lepidus' "Happily amen!", but Lepidus would be the FOURTH character. In 3. CAHARCTERISATION there are just THREE characters to characterise. CONFUSING ALL THIS! I hope that this is to be disregarded cause Lepidus just goes on my nerves (only concerning this assignment, this is!).
@@ Line 47: / Line 47: @@
 * [http://www.wiki.uni-oldenburg.de/fk3/angl-am/index.php?title=BM1_-_Introduction_to_Literature_-_Assignment_2:_Hamlet 2007 BM 1:Assignment 2: Hamlet] and its [http://www.wiki.uni-oldenburg.de/fk3/angl-am/index.php?title=BM1_-_Introduction_to_Literature_-_Assignment_2:_Hamlet/Model_Solution 2007 BM 1:Assignment 2: Hamlet - Model Solution]
-== Quotationproblem ==
+===Quotation problem===
 I do have a little problem in quoting, because it is hard for me to count the lines!
@@ Line 70: / Line 70: @@
 And if you consider this, it fits with the lines!
 --[[User:Fiebie|Fiebie]] 19:59, 26 May 2008 (CEST)

Anna Auguscik: /* Quotationproblem */

2008-05-26T18:36:52Z

Quotationproblem

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	:Blank verses are called "blank" verses because they blank your minds and memories as soon as you encounter them. I must have mentioned blank verses! --[[User:Olaf Simons\|Olaf Simons]] 20:25, 26 May 2008 (CEST)		:Blank verses are called "blank" verses because they blank your minds and memories as soon as you encounter them. I must have mentioned blank verses! --[[User:Olaf Simons\|Olaf Simons]] 20:25, 26 May 2008 (CEST)

	Do you use the Arden edition for your assignment? there you can see that sometimes when a new character starts speaking, it is ~~intended~~, which means that it still counts to the line before!		Do you use the Arden edition for your assignment? there you can see that sometimes when a new character starts speaking, it is indented, which means that it still counts to the line before!
	And if you consider this, it fits with the lines!		And if you consider this, it fits with the lines!
	--[[User:Fiebie\|Fiebie]] 19:59, 26 May 2008 (CEST)		--[[User:Fiebie\|Fiebie]] 19:59, 26 May 2008 (CEST)

Olaf Simons: /* Quotationproblem */

2008-05-26T18:25:57Z

Quotationproblem

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	I think we did not do it in our course!		I think we did not do it in our course!

			:Blank verses are called "blank" verses because they blank your minds and memories as soon as you encounter them. I must have mentioned blank verses! --[[User:Olaf Simons\|Olaf Simons]] 20:25, 26 May 2008 (CEST)

	Do you use the Arden edition for your assignment? there you can see that sometimes when a new character starts speaking, it is intended, which means that it still counts to the line before!		Do you use the Arden edition for your assignment? there you can see that sometimes when a new character starts speaking, it is intended, which means that it still counts to the line before!
	And if you consider this, it fits with the lines!		And if you consider this, it fits with the lines!
	--[[User:Fiebie\|Fiebie]] 19:59, 26 May 2008 (CEST)		--[[User:Fiebie\|Fiebie]] 19:59, 26 May 2008 (CEST)

Fiebie: /* Quotationproblem */

2008-05-26T17:59:54Z

Quotationproblem

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	But the problem is how many stressed syllables belong to one line?!		But the problem is how many stressed syllables belong to one line?!
	I think we did not do it in our course!		I think we did not do it in our course!


			Do you use the Arden edition for your assignment? there you can see that sometimes when a new character starts speaking, it is intended, which means that it still counts to the line before!
			And if you consider this, it fits with the lines!
			--[[User:Fiebie\|Fiebie]] 19:59, 26 May 2008 (CEST)

Lena StÃ¼ttelberg: /* Quotationproblem */

2008-05-26T17:47:07Z

Quotationproblem

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	It is verses they count and a verse is full when it has reached its full number of stressed syllables - we spoke about all this in the first sessions this semester, didn't we? Those who were with us might even be able to tell what kind of verses we have got here. --[[User:Olaf Simons\|Olaf Simons]] 11:02, 26 May 2008 (CEST)		It is verses they count and a verse is full when it has reached its full number of stressed syllables - we spoke about all this in the first sessions this semester, didn't we? Those who were with us might even be able to tell what kind of verses we have got here. --[[User:Olaf Simons\|Olaf Simons]] 11:02, 26 May 2008 (CEST)

			Well there is no problem in couting the stressed syllables.
			But the problem is how many stressed syllables belong to one line?!
			I think we did not do it in our course!

Olaf Simons: /* Quotationproblem */

2008-05-26T11:25:49Z

Quotationproblem

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	----		----

	It is verses they count and a verse is full when it has reached its full number of stressed syllables - we spoke about all this in the first sessions this semester, ~~did not~~ we? Those who were with us might even be able to tell what kind of verses we have got here. --[[User:Olaf Simons\|Olaf Simons]] 11:02, 26 May 2008 (CEST)		It is verses they count and a verse is full when it has reached its full number of stressed syllables - we spoke about all this in the first sessions this semester, didn't we? Those who were with us might even be able to tell what kind of verses we have got here. --[[User:Olaf Simons\|Olaf Simons]] 11:02, 26 May 2008 (CEST)

Olaf Simons: /* Quotationproblem */

2008-05-26T09:02:58Z

Quotationproblem

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	I have the same problem…how are we supposed to count the lines if there are seven lines between line 20 and line 25????? Very annoying… --[[User:Marietta Sonnenschein\|Marietta Sonnenschein]] 22:16, 25 May 2008 (CEST)		I have the same problem…how are we supposed to count the lines if there are seven lines between line 20 and line 25????? Very annoying… --[[User:Marietta Sonnenschein\|Marietta Sonnenschein]] 22:16, 25 May 2008 (CEST)

	~~Sometimes, a line of one speaker can be continued by another. Example from The Tempest, Act II, Scene i, v. 199~~-~~202. The dots (to highlight the space) indicate such a continuation, the words in bold thus produce one line. Best,~~ --~~[[User:Anna Auguscik\|Anna Auguscik]] 10:44, 26 May 2008 (CEST)~~		----

	~~SEBASTIAN~~		It is verses they count and a verse is full when it has reached its full number of stressed syllables - we spoke about all this in the first sessions this semester, did not we? Those who were with us might even be able to tell what kind of verses we have got here. --[[User:Olaf Simons\|Olaf Simons]] 11:02, 26 May 2008 (CEST)
	~~:What~~ a ~~strange drowsiness possesses them! (199)~~
	~~ANTONIO~~
	~~:'''It~~ is the ~~quality o'th'climate.'''~~
	~~SEBASTIAN..............................'''Why''' (200)~~
	~~:Doth it~~ not ~~then our eyelids sink~~? ~~I find not (201)~~
	~~:'''Myself disposed~~ to ~~sleep~~.~~'''~~
	~~ANTONIO............................. '''Nor I. My spirits are nimble.'''~~ (~~202~~)