Talk:2011 AM Literary Representations of Torture - Revision history

Anna Auguscik: moved Talk:AM Literary Representations of Torture to Talk:2011 AM Literary Representations of Torture

2012-02-23T19:20:57Z

moved Talk:AM Literary Representations of Torture to Talk:2011 AM Literary Representations of Torture

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Daniel.sip: /* Expert Groups */

2011-06-22T18:25:59Z

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Daniel.sip: /* Expert Groups */

2011-06-22T18:24:06Z

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	'''Authority/Society/Context (Niewint/Senkbeil)'''		'''Authority/Society/Context (Niewint/Senkbeil)'''

	~~Writers are part of~~ the ~~society they live in. In South Africa it is not allowed to photograph or to~~ sketch the prisons or the buildings of the security police, because the government wants to conceal their existence or at least deny, what happens inside. So the writer is maybe able to see the building, he can know that there is something going on inside it, he can maybe even know, that the police uses torture, but he stands right in ~~front~~ of the "dark chamber" and can not look into it (just as anyone else in that society). But in contrast to other people, the writer is able to visualize his imaginations – it is the writers "womb of art", as Coetzee calls it. The lack of information about governmental torture and the sketches provided by literature about it come along with the human fascination of authoritarianism. So the state provides the preconditions (secret usage of barely legal, institutional torture~~), the human race curiosity, fear and fascination, using literature to investigate.~~		What dependence between literature and the state does Coetzee sketch in regard of torture representations?

	~~What dependence between~~ literature ~~and~~ the state ~~does Coetzee sketch in regard~~ of torture ~~representations?~~		Writers are part of the society they live in. In South Africa it is not allowed to photograph or to sketch the prisons or the buildings of the security police, because the government wants to conceal their existence or at least deny, what happens inside. So the writer is maybe able to see the building, he can know that there is something going on inside it, he can maybe even know, that the police uses torture, but he stands right in front of the "dark chamber" and can not look into it (just as anyone else in that society). But in contrast to other people, the writer is able to visualize his imaginations – it is the writers "womb of art", as Coetzee calls it. The lack of information about governmental torture and the sketches provided by literature about it come along with the human fascination of authoritarianism. So the state provides the preconditions (secret usage of barely legal, institutional torture), the human race curiosity, fear and fascination, using literature to investigate. (KS)

	According to Coetzee the state wants unplesant places, like prisons or buidlings in which torture is applied, "out of sight". Thus the torture room, John T. Irwin calls it "the dark room", is inaccessible for the novelist. At the same time this inaccessbility "is the source of [...] imaginings - the womb of art." Against this backdrop, the state provides the preconditions for torture novels. Furthermore the relations between torturer and victim serve as a metaphor of authoritarianism. Eventhough torture is illegal, the executive forces (the police in this case) are well protected of being sued. The victim, as an "inhibitant of authoritarianism", is unable to defend himself against the force of the torturer, the legislator.		According to Coetzee the state wants unplesant places, like prisons or buidlings in which torture is applied, "out of sight". Thus the torture room, John T. Irwin calls it "the dark room", is inaccessible for the novelist. At the same time this inaccessbility "is the source of [...] imaginings - the womb of art." Against this backdrop, the state provides the preconditions for torture novels. Furthermore the relations between torturer and victim serve as a metaphor of authoritarianism. Eventhough torture is illegal, the executive forces (the police in this case) are well protected of being sued. The victim, as an "inhibitant of authoritarianism", is unable to defend himself against the force of the torturer, the legislator.

Daniel.sip: /* Expert Groups */

2011-06-22T18:23:01Z

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	'''Authority/Society/Context (Niewint/Senkbeil)'''		'''Authority/Society/Context (Niewint/Senkbeil)'''

			Writers are part of the society they live in. In South Africa it is not allowed to photograph or to sketch the prisons or the buildings of the security police, because the government wants to conceal their existence or at least deny, what happens inside. So the writer is maybe able to see the building, he can know that there is something going on inside it, he can maybe even know, that the police uses torture, but he stands right in front of the "dark chamber" and can not look into it (just as anyone else in that society). But in contrast to other people, the writer is able to visualize his imaginations – it is the writers "womb of art", as Coetzee calls it. The lack of information about governmental torture and the sketches provided by literature about it come along with the human fascination of authoritarianism. So the state provides the preconditions (secret usage of barely legal, institutional torture), the human race curiosity, fear and fascination, using literature to investigate.

	What dependence between literature and the state does Coetzee sketch in regard of torture representations?		What dependence between literature and the state does Coetzee sketch in regard of torture representations?
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	The paradox of the "stupefying disproportion of the pygmy men on trial and the enormitiy of the crimes they have commited", that came out during the Nüremberger trials depicts the problems the novelist encounters while trying to depict torturers. The question Coetzee raises deals with the how in sketching these people, without succumbing to cliches in order to establish one's own authority without falling into "dark lyricism". (RD)		The paradox of the "stupefying disproportion of the pygmy men on trial and the enormitiy of the crimes they have commited", that came out during the Nüremberger trials depicts the problems the novelist encounters while trying to depict torturers. The question Coetzee raises deals with the how in sketching these people, without succumbing to cliches in order to establish one's own authority without falling into "dark lyricism". (RD)

			A writer has to be extra careful with the character-development of torturers and writing of torture scenes. One can easily drift into cliches or in some cases fetish-like imageries. Despite the cruelness of the torture-act, one hast to keep in mind that the torturer is still a human being and therefore should not be described as some sort of evil, "demonic" creature. Coetzee gives the example of a former SS-Officer, who was a mass-murderer despite his "pygmy" physique. (CZ)

	'''Truth/Confession (Sieling, Barkemeyer)'''		'''Truth/Confession (Sieling, Barkemeyer)'''

	What are the 3 problems that writers encounters when writing about torture? (Coetzee formulates them as 3 questions!)		What are the 3 problems that writers encounters when writing about torture? (Coetzee formulates them as 3 questions!)

			The first question which is formulated by Coetzee in the text is, why torture has exerted a dark fascination on many South African writers. Here is the first problem. Something like fascination, which is actually something positive, can have a bad influence on the story which deals with torture. It could happen, that torture is represented as something which is exciting and thrilling. So a wrong reflection about the reality of torture could develop for the reader.
			The next question deals with the problem, if the novelist is not guilty of seeking out his squalid subject matter for perversely literary reasons. Perhaps that means, that the novelist doesn’t care about torture and all the horrible circumstances which are connected to it. He is just interested in the literary stuff. In my point of view, here is also the question if it is related to voyeurism. The novelist doesn’t care, if his novel could be rude. It only matters that he can write something down and the people have something exciting to read.
			The third question and problem is, how the writer is to represent the torturer. The writer has to avoid cliches of spy fiction. Otherwise it looks ridiculous and it seems like the writer doesn’t take the subject torture as seriously as it is necessary. (VS)


	Rejali, Darius: "Whom Do You Trust? What Do You Count On?"		Rejali, Darius: "Whom Do You Trust? What Do You Count On?"

Sören Niewint at 13:42, 22 June 2011

2011-06-22T13:42:02Z

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	What dependence between literature and the state does Coetzee sketch in regard of torture representations?		What dependence between literature and the state does Coetzee sketch in regard of torture representations?

			According to Coetzee the state wants unplesant places, like prisons or buidlings in which torture is applied, "out of sight". Thus the torture room, John T. Irwin calls it "the dark room", is inaccessible for the novelist. At the same time this inaccessbility "is the source of [...] imaginings - the womb of art." Against this backdrop, the state provides the preconditions for torture novels. Furthermore the relations between torturer and victim serve as a metaphor of authoritarianism. Eventhough torture is illegal, the executive forces (the police in this case) are well protected of being sued. The victim, as an "inhibitant of authoritarianism", is unable to defend himself against the force of the torturer, the legislator.

			This derives the problem that the writer either ignores or represents the cruelties of the state. However, representation has to happen "on one's own terms" and thus "establish one's own authority".

			[[User:Sören Niewint\|Sören Niewint]]


	'''Torture Methods (Dragomir, Zielonki, Bagus)'''		'''Torture Methods (Dragomir, Zielonki, Bagus)'''

Capco at 09:26, 22 June 2011

2011-06-22T09:26:58Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:26, 22 June 2011
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	What should a writer avoid when representing torturers and why should he do this?		What should a writer avoid when representing torturers and why should he do this?

			The paradox of the "stupefying disproportion of the pygmy men on trial and the enormitiy of the crimes they have commited", that came out during the Nüremberger trials depicts the problems the novelist encounters while trying to depict torturers. The question Coetzee raises deals with the how in sketching these people, without succumbing to cliches in order to establish one's own authority without falling into "dark lyricism". (RD)

	'''Truth/Confession (Sieling, Barkemeyer)'''		'''Truth/Confession (Sieling, Barkemeyer)'''

Daniel.sip: /* Expert Groups */

2011-06-20T15:16:15Z

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	'''Authority/Society/Context (Niewint/Senkbeil)'''		'''Authority/Society/Context (Niewint/Senkbeil)'''

	What dependence between literature and the state does Coetzee sketch in regard of torture representations?		What dependence between literature and the state does Coetzee sketch in regard of torture representations?

	'''Torture Methods (Dragomir, Zielonki, Bagus)'''		'''Torture Methods (Dragomir, Zielonki, Bagus)'''

	What should a writer avoid when representing torturers and why should he do this?		What should a writer avoid when representing torturers and why should he do this?

	'''Truth/Confession (Sieling, Barkemeyer)'''		'''Truth/Confession (Sieling, Barkemeyer)'''

	What are the 3 problems that writers encounters when writing about torture? (Coetzee formulates them as 3 questions!)		What are the 3 problems that writers encounters when writing about torture? (Coetzee formulates them as 3 questions!)

Daniel.sip: /* Expert Groups */

2011-06-20T15:15:40Z

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	== Expert Groups ==		== Expert Groups ==

			Coetzee, J.M.: "Into the Dark Chamber: The Novelist and South Africa."

			'''Authority/Society/Context (Niewint/Senkbeil)'''
			What dependence between literature and the state does Coetzee sketch in regard of torture representations?

			'''Torture Methods (Dragomir, Zielonki, Bagus)'''
			What should a writer avoid when representing torturers and why should he do this?

			'''Truth/Confession (Sieling, Barkemeyer)'''
			What are the 3 problems that writers encounters when writing about torture? (Coetzee formulates them as 3 questions!)

	Rejali, Darius: "Whom Do You Trust? What Do You Count On?"		Rejali, Darius: "Whom Do You Trust? What Do You Count On?"

Daniel.sip: /* Expert Groups */

2011-06-15T21:59:07Z

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← Older revision		Revision as of 23:59, 15 June 2011
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	[[User:Sören Niewint\|Sören Niewint]]		[[User:Sören Niewint\|Sören Niewint]]

			According to the text by Rejali there are five modes of being in prison, which go hand in hand with the act of torture. Since the psychological torture of "Big Brother" is omnipresent in Oceania, Winston is always aware that he accidentaly could commit thoughtcrime, which would lead to imprisonment, torture or eventually death. In order to avoid that, Winston is in the mode of alertness when he follows the rules of the system, although he is against it. He is also in the mode of governance when he seeks contact to the resistance and in the mode of compassion when he remembers his memory of O`Brian before the torture. Unfortunately, in Oceania`s prisons all theses modes are ineffective, so they don`t help him much when he actually gets imprisoned. The only effective mode that Winston uses is the mode of forgetfulness, when he finally looses his need for resistance and accepts the concept of doublethink, which also brings an end to the torture. (CZ)

			Rejali states that the modes of alertness, governance, laughter and compassion are not available in Oceania`s prisons. Indeed Smith does practice modes of alertness, governance and compassion but the Party can prevent these efforts. The only mode Winston can make use of is the mode of forgetfulness. I think Winston is fully broken in the end due to the fact that he cannot react rationally while facing the rats in front of his face. The Party`s ability to control the bodies of the prisoners finally makes it impossible to Winston to resist the coercion. (MM)


			How does Winston resist the coercion that is put on him through torture? What techniques/ways does he have to endure pain and torture?
			Winston has to endure both physical and psychological torture. He has to suffer from electro-shocks and is faced by his greatest fears: rats. In all cases he is reliant on the will of his torturers. There is no way to escape from that arbitrary game that is just played to make him obedient to the rules of the society. In the end his body is marked from the reeducation as well as his soul and mind. Even his love to Julia that kept his thoughts unbroken is exploited and betrayed in the end. He lost all his individuality by being tortured to become a plain and aligned part of society.

			If you think he is not fully broken in the end explain what scene/insight into him represents this final resistance. If you think he is fully broken explain why he is eventually unable to resist?
			I don't think he is broken completely in the end, however, there is no way for him to escape from the restrains of the society. He knows that he will live a life under the control of big brother and his helpers and will never have a minute or a place to be alone again. If he decided to resist he will disappear and be killed. That is why he has no other choice but to obey and live on his life in the purpose of society. Another reason why Winston is broken and accepts his reeducation is because O'Brien explains him the three steps of it: learning, understanding and accepting. He is reeducated in a very „gentle“ way which makes it easier for him to accept it. (SB)

	'''Torture Methods (Dragomir, Zielonki, Bagus)'''		'''Torture Methods (Dragomir, Zielonki, Bagus)'''

Sören Niewint: /* Expert Groups */

2011-06-15T14:03:46Z

Expert Groups

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:03, 15 June 2011
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	'''Authority/Society/Context (Niewint/Senkbeil)'''		'''Authority/Society/Context (Niewint/Senkbeil)'''

			According to Rejali "In Oceania's prison, modes of alertness, governance, laughter and compassion are not available." The state prevents some modes of being right from the start, shaping persons which are less likely to resist torture. Only the mode of forgetfulness is available to Winston, but fails since O'Brien seems almighty and to read his mind. Winston's attempt's to simply answer O'Brien's questions correctly fail.

			[[User:Sören Niewint\|Sören Niewint]]

	'''Torture Methods (Dragomir, Zielonki, Bagus)'''		'''Torture Methods (Dragomir, Zielonki, Bagus)'''

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:25, 22 June 2011
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	'''Authority/Society/Context (Niewint/Senkbeil)'''		'''Authority/Society/Context (Niewint/Senkbeil)'''

	What dependence between literature and the state does Coetzee sketch in regard of torture representations?		''What dependence between literature and the state does Coetzee sketch in regard of torture representations?''

	Writers are part of the society they live in. In South Africa it is not allowed to photograph or to sketch the prisons or the buildings of the security police, because the government wants to conceal their existence or at least deny, what happens inside. So the writer is maybe able to see the building, he can know that there is something going on inside it, he can maybe even know, that the police uses torture, but he stands right in front of the "dark chamber" and can not look into it (just as anyone else in that society). But in contrast to other people, the writer is able to visualize his imaginations – it is the writers "womb of art", as Coetzee calls it. The lack of information about governmental torture and the sketches provided by literature about it come along with the human fascination of authoritarianism. So the state provides the preconditions (secret usage of barely legal, institutional torture), the human race curiosity, fear and fascination, using literature to investigate. (KS)		Writers are part of the society they live in. In South Africa it is not allowed to photograph or to sketch the prisons or the buildings of the security police, because the government wants to conceal their existence or at least deny, what happens inside. So the writer is maybe able to see the building, he can know that there is something going on inside it, he can maybe even know, that the police uses torture, but he stands right in front of the "dark chamber" and can not look into it (just as anyone else in that society). But in contrast to other people, the writer is able to visualize his imaginations – it is the writers "womb of art", as Coetzee calls it. The lack of information about governmental torture and the sketches provided by literature about it come along with the human fascination of authoritarianism. So the state provides the preconditions (secret usage of barely legal, institutional torture), the human race curiosity, fear and fascination, using literature to investigate. (KS)
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	'''Torture Methods (Dragomir, Zielonki, Bagus)'''		'''Torture Methods (Dragomir, Zielonki, Bagus)'''

	What should a writer avoid when representing torturers and why should he do this?		''What should a writer avoid when representing torturers and why should he do this?''

	The paradox of the "stupefying disproportion of the pygmy men on trial and the enormitiy of the crimes they have commited", that came out during the Nüremberger trials depicts the problems the novelist encounters while trying to depict torturers. The question Coetzee raises deals with the how in sketching these people, without succumbing to cliches in order to establish one's own authority without falling into "dark lyricism". (RD)		The paradox of the "stupefying disproportion of the pygmy men on trial and the enormitiy of the crimes they have commited", that came out during the Nüremberger trials depicts the problems the novelist encounters while trying to depict torturers. The question Coetzee raises deals with the how in sketching these people, without succumbing to cliches in order to establish one's own authority without falling into "dark lyricism". (RD)
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	'''Truth/Confession (Sieling, Barkemeyer)'''		'''Truth/Confession (Sieling, Barkemeyer)'''

	What are the 3 problems that writers encounters when writing about torture? (Coetzee formulates them as 3 questions!)		''What are the 3 problems that writers encounters when writing about torture? (Coetzee formulates them as 3 questions!)''

	The first question which is formulated by Coetzee in the text is, why torture has exerted a dark fascination on many South African writers. Here is the first problem. Something like fascination, which is actually something positive, can have a bad influence on the story which deals with torture. It could happen, that torture is represented as something which is exciting and thrilling. So a wrong reflection about the reality of torture could develop for the reader.		The first question which is formulated by Coetzee in the text is, why torture has exerted a dark fascination on many South African writers. Here is the first problem. Something like fascination, which is actually something positive, can have a bad influence on the story which deals with torture. It could happen, that torture is represented as something which is exciting and thrilling. So a wrong reflection about the reality of torture could develop for the reader.
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	Rejali, Darius: "Whom Do You Trust? What Do You Count On?"		Rejali, Darius: "Whom Do You Trust? What Do You Count On?"

	How does Winston resist the coercion that is put on him through torture? What techniques/ways does he have to endure pain and torture? (Physical/Psychological)		''How does Winston resist the coercion that is put on him through torture? What techniques/ways does he have to endure pain and torture? (Physical/Psychological)''

	If you think he is not fully broken in the end explain what scene/insight into him represents this final resistance. If you think he is fully broken explain why he is eventually unable to resist?		''If you think he is not fully broken in the end explain what scene/insight into him represents this final resistance. If you think he is fully broken explain why he is eventually unable to resist?''

	'''Authority/Society/Context (Niewint/Senkbeil)'''		'''Authority/Society/Context (Niewint/Senkbeil)'''
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	How does Winston resist the coercion that is put on him through torture? What techniques/ways does he have to endure pain and torture?		''How does Winston resist the coercion that is put on him through torture? What techniques/ways does he have to endure pain and torture?''
	Winston has to endure both physical and psychological torture. He has to suffer from electro-shocks and is faced by his greatest fears: rats. In all cases he is reliant on the will of his torturers. There is no way to escape from that arbitrary game that is just played to make him obedient to the rules of the society. In the end his body is marked from the reeducation as well as his soul and mind. Even his love to Julia that kept his thoughts unbroken is exploited and betrayed in the end. He lost all his individuality by being tortured to become a plain and aligned part of society.		Winston has to endure both physical and psychological torture. He has to suffer from electro-shocks and is faced by his greatest fears: rats. In all cases he is reliant on the will of his torturers. There is no way to escape from that arbitrary game that is just played to make him obedient to the rules of the society. In the end his body is marked from the reeducation as well as his soul and mind. Even his love to Julia that kept his thoughts unbroken is exploited and betrayed in the end. He lost all his individuality by being tortured to become a plain and aligned part of society.

	If you think he is not fully broken in the end explain what scene/insight into him represents this final resistance. If you think he is fully broken explain why he is eventually unable to resist?		''If you think he is not fully broken in the end explain what scene/insight into him represents this final resistance. If you think he is fully broken explain why he is eventually unable to resist?''
	I don't think he is broken completely in the end, however, there is no way for him to escape from the restrains of the society. He knows that he will live a life under the control of big brother and his helpers and will never have a minute or a place to be alone again. If he decided to resist he will disappear and be killed. That is why he has no other choice but to obey and live on his life in the purpose of society. Another reason why Winston is broken and accepts his reeducation is because O'Brien explains him the three steps of it: learning, understanding and accepting. He is reeducated in a very „gentle“ way which makes it easier for him to accept it. (SB)		I don't think he is broken completely in the end, however, there is no way for him to escape from the restrains of the society. He knows that he will live a life under the control of big brother and his helpers and will never have a minute or a place to be alone again. If he decided to resist he will disappear and be killed. That is why he has no other choice but to obey and live on his life in the purpose of society. Another reason why Winston is broken and accepts his reeducation is because O'Brien explains him the three steps of it: learning, understanding and accepting. He is reeducated in a very „gentle“ way which makes it easier for him to accept it. (SB)